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James Hagedorn is Chairman and CEO of Scotts Company, the country's top lawn-care products company. He began his career with seven years as a fighter pilot in the Air Force before joining his family's business, Miracle-Gro. At Miracle-Gro, Hagedorn drove international growth and helped engineer the company's merger with Ohio-based Scotts. He holds a BS from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. He serves on the boards of a variety of charities.
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PH: ...All the questions I'm asking are really going to be around what you were thinking and how you had developed yourself in that early stage of your career.
JH: You might find it useful, or not, you know. But it was unusual, I think.
PH: That's exactly what I would find useful, I think. Just to get things started, can you give me a sense of your first job after college or graduate school? First full-time?
JH: Flying F-16s for the Air Force.
PH: Okay. And, so, was that actually in Vietnam?
JH: Nope. I'm not that old.
PH: What were your goals in taking that job? Did you have a specific plan?
JH: Yeah, I wanted to be an airline pilot. Let me just go back so you understand the context. The Scotts Company is about 40% owned by my family. My father founded a company called Miracle-Gro back in the early 50s, and my looking at him as I grew up - He kind of - My older brother and older sister were total hippies, and my older sister Susan, who's 10 years older than me, she was in the SDS Weathermen, so she was like a connected radical and all that crap...(PH chuckles). No, this is cool - but she was up in Cambridge, and, so, imagine growing up in the 70s, your dad is running a plant-food company, and he seemed like this fat accountant guy. He was on the phone all the time. It didn't look appealing to me, compared to sort-of Jesse James, my hippie sister and hippie brother - That looked pretty cool.
So I was 15 years old, and ran away from home for 2 years. I think you asked in your thing what was the most important job you ever had, as far as changing yourself. So finally I had a bad relationship with a woman, and I don't know why this drove me home, but basically, I accepted an invitation to come home.
PH: This is between when you're 15 and 17?
JH: Yeah. So I came home, but I was still a complete animal, really long hair, and druggies, and all this crap. I got a job working in a print shop. It was non-union, but it was lithography, 4-color printing, and all these blue-collar guys working in the print shop became like my older brother, kind of. Probably the most important thing that ever happened in my life. This was right at the tail end of Vietnam, and I decided - I went from being stupidly left to being pretty seriously right in my view of politics in general. That job working in the print shop was a big deal to me. And then -
PH: Specifically, what kind - when you say these guys were like older brothers to you -
JH: They would take me fishing, and they would - These were blue-collar guys that worked in a print shop, you know? I worked in the plate shop, so I was what they call a stripper. A stripper, you basically - you separate color photography, generally, into 4 colors, and then plates are made for the 4 colors, and all the negatives have to be stripped together. That's what they call a stripper. So I worked in the stripping department of this print shop, and all the guys who worked stripping basically became like my buds. And they were all older guys, who had kids, and I had to have really short hair, because they wouldn't let me work there without short hair, so it was the first time I had to have a real haircut. Once I had the haircut, no one recognized me for the hippie freak that I was. They recognized with my hair short as being kind of like them. And the truth is, the more they talked about America, and politics of Vietnam, and Nixon - I couldn't believe that Nixon would actually lie - this is what I got from the print shop.
I learned a lot about, sort of, believing in the country, as opposed to wanting to fight everything. So I did that, I went back to high school, because it was my first summer, and I went back to school. So I went to this boarding school up in Vermont, and I decided I wanted to be an airline pilot. And this is back in the days when Pan American World Airways - being an airline pilot was like being a lawyer or doctor.
I graduated from high school, and went on to Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, down in Daytona, Florida, and still went through there - Although, what I learned for the first time, was that studying was pretty cool. Because I was a pretty crappy student, and I never really understood why I really wanted to learn. And I had some pretty good roommates, and a lot of the competitive juices in me - because I'm not sure I really wanted to learn, but I had to have better grades than they did. So we all worked hard to have better grades, and that forced us all - So I was never off dean's list, not once, in college. And when I got down there - I'd already taken a slot in the navy, in, I guess freshman year, to join Navy as a pilot. Because I figured if you're going to be an airline pilot, where are you going to get better training than in the military?
So remember, I looked at my old man's job as totally boring: why would anyone want to do that? So I went to Embry Riddle, and they were advertising - this was right after the Vietnam War, and they had RIF'd a lot of people out - you know, Reduction in Force - so that basically to get an Air Force slot you had to go to the Air Force Academy or, if you were ROTC, you had to be pretty special. So I went down to take this test - I already had a Navy slot, so I figured I'd take this Air Force slot just to - The Air Force had more F4s than the Navy had - which was this old fighter that they had - more F4s alone than the Navy had total airplanes in the entire fleet. So I figured, what the hell, I'll take the test, I got nothing to lose, and for some reason, I'm a pretty good test taker, I guess. Next thing, I get this letter back saying we want you in the Air Force, and we'll give you a full scholarship, retroactive to freshman year. This was very cool for me, because my old man had told us all, the 6 kids in the family, he had told us all: "Anybody who gets a scholarship, half of what you save me, I give to you." Oh, man - I showed him the certificate of scholarship, and bought myself an almost-new BMW. That was cool.
Anyway, then I graduated. Now, when I graduated, I had a year before - They were hiring a lot of pilots back then. So I had a year before I could start pilot training. In that year, I asked my old man if I could work at Miracle-Gro...
PH: So this was prior to Scotts' acquisition - This was when it was still a stand-alone Miracle-Gro?
JH: Correct. Private company. So he said okay - you know, I did dopey jobs around Miracle-Gro, but all executive training kind of stuff: quality control, co-op advertising, that was the kind of stuff people did back then at Miracle-Gro. But here's the thing: you know what I saw, which is kind of what drives me in general? Is business, at least that business, and I think this business, too - it's all about competition. It's all warfare. Instead of being this fat guy sitting behind a desk, it's like being the general of an army! Because it's commercial warfare - it's economic warfare!
PH: So it appealed more to your personality?
JH: Yeah, I had a great time! I thought this is really cool. Not so cool that I didn't still want to go into the air force - And I had no choice, or I would've gone to Leavenworth otherwise. But, the point was, I said, "This is a LOT different than I thought it was going to be."
PH: So you were viewing this essentially as a way for you to spend some time before going into the service, but then it ended up -
JH: I had nothing to do for a year, because my pilot training class didn't start for a year after college graduation. But then what happened was, the Shah of Iran got thrown out, and when the Shah of Iran got thrown out, we did a lot of training for Iranian pilots down in Mississipi - I was supposed to go out to Arizona for pilot training. So they accelerated my start date by six months, which meant that instead of a year, I had six months to work [at Miracle-Gro]. But it was enough to give me the taste of, "Business is pretty cool. I like that!"
So then I went through pilot training, did pretty well in pilot training, got myself an F16. Spent most of my time overseas in Germany, and then ended up after 7 years of flying - had to make a decision, because the way the Air Force works is they hold out the really good assignments towards the end of what they call your commitment. Which basically says if they can swing you beyond 10 [years], because you can retire at 20 - there's a pretty good chance if they can get you beyond 10, you'll just say, like, "Pffft, might as well just hang in there."
PH: Right - just wait it out.
JH: Yeah, you get like 50% pay, and all the benefits, all the crap that goes along with it, for life. I never viewed the military as a career.
It was in pilot training - just so you know - it was in pilot training that my airline hopes sort of went away. I had this flight commander - what the hell was his name? Major Hutnall, or something like that - he said, "Okay, look: here's the way we're going to have the seating in the - because this was the T38, the second half of - You start your first six months in C37s, these old Cessna jets, and then you go into this incredible airplane called the T38s, the Northrup airplane. Beautiful, like a Ferrari of an airplane - 2 seat, like a fighter trainer. So he was in charge of the T38 training for my class. He said, "Everyone who wants to kill people, you sit on this side of the room. And you guys are going to decorate the walls with fighter planes and stuff like that. Everyone who wants to fly their toilet paper around, you sit on the left side." Well, I had to make a choice here. Did I want to fly toilet paper or, like, drop bombs on people? That sounded a lot better to me, the dropping bombs part. So I raised my hand and said, "I want to go on the fighter side." It all worked out.
So, you know - I never had a bad job. I always had jobs I've liked.
PH: Yeah, so can you describe for me a little bit about how you made that transition from the Air Force, at the end of your 7 years in the Air Force, back to your -
JH: I'll tell you, it was a lot different than I thought. First, I call my old man up and say, "I got to make a decision, listen. I'm thinking maybe leave the military and come work for Miracle-Gro, what do you think?" He says, "Well, I'll tell you what -
PH: At this point, neither of your other two siblings had gone this path, right?
JH: Oh, there were six of us.
PH: Okay, but the two older ones you mentioned who were hippies who had influenced me -
JH: No. Well, actually, my older brother Peter, he was in - he was kind of like the #3 guy in the company.
PH: So there was some established path for other siblings to have gone this route?
JH: I don't know. This was second generation, so I would say I'm not sure there was an established path. I think there was an opportunity if you wanted it. My old man, who was - well, I'll tell you the interview, and that will kind of answer the question.
My father, when he talked to executive candidates at Miracle-Gro, he'd always say, "If you could have anyone's job at the company, whose job would you want?" And most people are too PC to say, like, "Your job." They'd say, "Oh, I want that guy's job or this job, I would be very excited to take that." I said, "Horace, there's only one job I want, and the only reason I'd leave the military is for your job." Now, his view was - and this is my own view towards my own children - because I've got a 22-year-old, and a 19-year-old, and a 13-year-old. But the older two, [my attitude] is, "Nobody can work here without having had a real job first." Because part of when you're wearing a military uniform, saying - if you don't mind my saying this - "Go fuck yourself" - that doesn't really work in the military. (Laughs) You know what I mean? That's not cool, that doesn't compute. It's all based on rank and hierarchy and everything. And that doesn't mean you can't talk back, it just means you gotta know when to shut up, say yes sir. My old man thought that was really important. I think that helped me a lot, okay? I would say, I don't know if this matters at all to you, that the military is a great place for people to sort of learn how to work. I just think it was so great for me.
Anyway, so my brother - you know, my father didn't have a ton of respect for people who never had a job other than Miracle-Gro. So when I got out of the Air Force - the girls, I got a twin sister, who's one of my directors now, and an older sister - neither one of them was invited to join the business, and I know they probably still feel bad about that. The boys, when I got out of the military, everyone was working for the company.
PH: So did you find that awkward, or did you enjoy that?
JH: Neither way. I didn't feel either way - I didn't feel awkward, or comfortable, or anything about it. I just felt it is what it is - but I was there for just one reason. And if you had asked them, who's going to run the company, I'm not sure they would've said Jim. They probably would've said, "Me." So there was an element of competition there. If you were to talk to my wife, I think she'd say, "When Jim decides he wants something, it's pretty hard to get him to bail on that idea." And so, my view was, I knew there were other boys in the family that wanted the old man's job. I never really viewed them as competition, but they did. But I'm pretty single-minded, and I don't look back a lot, at some of this stuff. And they all fell away. That's good and bad, but it was -
PH: If you don't mind my asking, did that hurt your relationships in the long term -
JH: With my older brother, it did, because when I first got there, my older brother was senior to me.
PH: That's Peter?
JH: Peter, yeah. When I outranked Peter, and my father declared a succession plan complete, which was naming me as his successor, that was extremely painful for my older brother, and ultimately, was so frustrating for him he left the business. My younger brother also left the business. Although with my younger brothers I have a terrific relationship, my older brother, we don't have a terrific relationship. Part of it is, that kind of younger brother is kind of family boss.
PH: Interesting. What do you think are the qualities that differentiated you in that succession race? I mean, you did kind of start out junior to him, and he'd had more time in the business - something obviously -
JH: Look, I live in New York. I work in Ohio five days a week. What kind of person would do that? (Laughs) You know, I have, like, two lives. It's really terrific in some ways, but for a lot of people - but it requires a ton of dedication, and it requires a very special spouse. But I, whether it was the military - I've always had a girlfriend, and the girlfriend has always been my job.
Most people don't take their jobs so seriously that they'll basically give up their lives for it. When I said to my old man, and he said, it's yours, the job - and I don't know how many people you're interviewing where there's kind of a family element to it, like Ford or Wal-Mart - but the Wal-Mart kid doesn't even work there. I would say, that when you say in a pretty major family business, I'll do it, you have, like, given up your life. I think there's a special person who wants to do that, somebody who's just totally focused on it and - I'm a pretty aggressive person. I like to win. I like to get what I want. I like to do good things - I mean, we do some terrific charity things, in the family, and myself personally, do a lot of really cool things, where people say, "Wow, that's really great." I give away a lot of my money every year, but I would say at the end of the day, it's all about competition, it's all about winning, and what I really want is control, and power.
PH: Yeah, but it's interesting. You mention that job in the shop with the blue-collar folks as a turning point -
JH: Sherry Lane Lithography, yeah.
PH: - but at the same time, what it sounds like what it really was doing was awakening this kind of latent side of you that was sort of -
JH: Nah, I don't think so. I think what it did is give me a dose of reality which really helped put my energy in context. I think I was always - I'm sure that I would I be A-double-triple-whatever - the ADD crap that they talk about. Because, you know, I'm sure people would have diagnosed me with something as a kid, because I was a bad kid. But, what kind of kid runs away from home for 2 years and lives like a homeless person at 15 years old? Now, I'm not saying it was a good thing, so don't get me wrong. But I do think, it's really the same sort of Jim that's here. It's just a much more productive use of my energy than, sort of, being a delinquent. You know what I mean? I think that really, I've just found a legal way to use my delinquency.
I was interviewed once by Stars and Stripes, which is the military newspaper, and they said - It was all about officers made good. Guys who had become like CEOs, ex-military officers. Let me tell you - all the stuff you do in the military, the camaraderie and esprit-de-corps, hanging out with some really super-smart guys who think about the same stuff as you, and it's all about just severe work - and I mean hard-core work, fly hard, party hard, go weird places - if you could take that energy to the civilian world. Listen, guys in the military, guys who had good jobs in the military for more than two years, so I'm talking like five or more years, especially if they fought in conflict - they talk about this shit for the rest of their lives! You know what I mean? You know it's an intense experience because like, (mimics old man's voice), "Oh, those wacky old days..." They're still talking about that when they're old men! If you could harness that - because that's the energy I love - if you could harness that energy in a work environment, holy mackerel! You'd be rich, and people would have a great time working for you. And that's what we're trying to do here at Scotts. I don't want this to be - Let me tell you, so I got out of the Air Force in '87, and I basically took, my first real job was to take Miracle-Gro to Europe, which we did successfully. And then I had this idea that - I looked at Scotts, and I couldn't believe how cheap Scott's was selling for. They were like kind of a failed public equity, from Nasdaq - they had had an LBO, and had always disappointed the Street. I looked all of a sudden and said, "I think we're worth more than they are, except that they're six times our size."
PH: In terms of revenue.
JH: Yeah. Yes, true (chuckles) - We made about the same amount of money. But us on $100 mm, and those guys on $600 mm. And I said, I wonder if we could take them over. And basically, I took over Scotts, and got away with it. And then Scotts blew up, because of stuff that was happening before the merger, which we probably should've known about - We had a little bit of deal fever when we did that deal. But actually, the emergency that happened at Scotts was finding out Scotts was a lot more screwed up than we thought it was - was the best thing that could've happened, because it allowed us to make Scotts from scratch, in the Miracle-Gro mold. And then we did that, and then we bought the Ortho business, and the Monsanto Round-Up business, then we bought every lawn and garden company in the world at one time, except for a couple of countries, like Australia and Japan - everyone in the world. We're the market leader basically everywhere, and all this has happened in less than 10 years. And I'm not that old! I'm 48.
PH: Did that occur when you were CEO, after you had ascended?
JH: No.
PH: Okay, then at that point -
JH: Right after we merged, I think I was Senior VP, Gardens, which was Miracle-Gro.
PH: But you were driving the action as one of the senior executives?
JH: Shit, yes! The company blows up, we fire the CEO, and we brought in one of my friends to, you know, this guy Chuck Berger to be the CEO. And he was on the Miracle-Gro board, his kids went to the same school I went to - that's how we met him - back in New York, and his job was to be my mentor, and help me grow. And he did a great job at that. That's not to say I'm so great, (chuckles) but he did a good job, the best job he could do, helping me do better.
PH: Okay, so that was interesting. What period of time did it take to work that conflict out, where things were pretty ugly with the Scotts business?
JH: Not long at all. It was ugly, in that we fired 25% of the employees, but for me - So we brought back the old CEO, and I was really worried my agenda would be screwed up, because my agenda was, within 3 years, I would be CEO. I mean, we did the deal on that basis - overtly, people knew. So now the CEO got fired, the guy who's supposed to help, and the old guy comes back, and I don't like the old guy, he doesn't like me very much, and it turned out he was a pretty good guy, and a pretty good teacher, and he was totally up front with me. He's like, "Look, I did not want to come back here and be CEO anymore. I'll deal with the legal side, I'll deal with the board, and you run the business."
PH: So you run operations.
JH: Pfft, it was great. Then we had a staff meeting, and he said, "Hagedorn is chief operator. I do everything else. Hag, talk to me." Pfft, that was easy. So firing all these people, it wasn't so hard - I didn't know any of them. Today, it'd be a lot harder. We cut everything other than advertising, because Scott's had done a kind of an Al Dunlap - sold as much stuff forward as they could, and put as many expenses back as they could - but the good news was, there was Scotts product everywhere. You couldn't go to a Home Depot without finding probably 20 truckloads of Turf Builder lying around.
PH: You had the fundamentals of distribution set up.
JH: Yeah, it was like commercially, things were cool. The economics didn't look that good - We took like a 10% price increase, and when the retailers think you're going out of business, guess what - they let you take price increases. So we took a big price increase, we fired a bunch of people, we got our expenses in control, and then we started advertising lawn fertilizer like crazy. Holy mackerel - the business went from losing money - that business today probably makes $200 mm a year, just that one business, Star lawn fertilizer, I'm talking profit. I mean, it's awesome.
And that was the Miracle-Gro model. If you ask my father, "Miracle-Gro is..." he would say, "Advertising success." So we just kind of applied the model. But I'll tell you, I look at the - this gets back to the sort of a - I'm looking at an article I have on the wall, which was the front page of the WSJ on Tuesday, July 23, 1996. The headline is called, "Turning the Tables: Miracle-Gro Turns the Tables on Scotts. Miracle-Gro Family Feeds Ranks of Firms that Bought It Out." Some of the board members thought they bought us, although I can't imagine in a public company when somebody has 40% of the shares, they would think that way, but they did. "The Hagedorns Try to Make Scotts Entrepreneurial, Thrifty Like Themselves. Homespun TV Commercials." Anyway, it's a good article. But it basically - it's the same kind of warfare I like to fight. And I had to learn it, because we go on the board, my old man, who's 88 now - so he was like 80 at the time. My old man was worse than me, as far as out of control, okay? The President of Miracle-Gro, my old man, and me go on the Scotts board. My old man just wants to be like a peaceful guy. He wants to get along with all the other old geezers on the board. Whatever my old man says, that's the way it's going to be. So who's the one when Scott's in trouble, that has to fight the board, too? The new guy: me. So I get this reputation on the board for being this young whippersnapper. They love me now. (Laughs). At the time, they didn't love me, because they didn't like hearing, "No, no, it wasn't you that bought us; we bought control of you. Read your proxy, guys." Anyway, this is all - I like strife. I like action.
PH: Interesting. To sort of - this has been a fascinating narrative, but besides some of those other things you mentioned, in terms of what enabled that success, it sounds like there have been some definite sacrifices. Were those conscious choices along the way, or was it -
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
PH: Was it the kind of thing where you really didn't want to make them, but you had to?
JH: No. Look - The sacrifice - I don't view them as sacrifice. Everyone else views them as sacrifice. I don't view it as a sacrifice that I come out here. I'd go crazy if I was home every day. Okay? But I think to most people, they would view it as sacrifice, and that's why - and I can't tell you what the difference is. What would I say? I would say, "Hagedorn is pretty focused. If he locks onto a target, he does not let it go easily." I have learned, and I've tried to teach it to my kids, that most people just don't want to fight. If people don't want to fight, and you want something bad enough, they'll let you have it. Without even fighting you.
PH: Why do you think most people don't want to fight?
JH: I don't know. Bad genes or something. I don't know. I think most people want peace. I don't think most people want to fight all the time. And I don't know that I like to fight - I like to fight all the time, but I just don't want it to be personal. You know what I mean? I think that's part of people would say, if you were to find critics of Jim Hagedorn, they would say, "The thing about Jim is, it's all personal. He just doesn't see it that way, and that's what so bionic about the bastard." Okay? I don't know if you know what I mean.
PH: Yeah, I know what you mean.
JH: But I view winning as being so important that - [my competitors might say,] "he says he doesn't think it's personal, but believe me, as someone who's been defeated by the guy, it's very personal. And if you try to get personal back at him, he raises the bar," which is pretty true. We are an extremely aggressive company, and we don't take prisoners real well.
PH: So I guess the other question I have -
JH: So - this is just important to me, maybe it's important to you. I get to make this company, as CEO, reflect my values. To the extent they're legal, and people buy into them, which are both important things. You need your team to believe. We've gotten to the point where we all believe, and part of what we're doing right now, in this company - we call it "performance management" - is weeding out the people that don't believe in what we believe in. So we're basically just saying, "Look, the one thing that is totally optional, is to work here. If you don't like where we're headed, which is basically, this is a competition machine, not a garden-fertilizer business, then leave. But otherwise, we expect you to believe what we believe, and be a disciple of the vision. Which is to be dominant in what we do."
PH: So it's interesting, because you've obviously got this very very passionate motivation. I'm kind of curious - at what point do you think this kind of thing goes away? It sounds like your father worked until he was relatively old -
JH: See, this is the thing. I have this view which says I would like to spend more time with my family, beyond 55. So that's what, 7 years from now? But my old man? I don't think my old man was at the peak of his professional career until he was, like, in his mid-70s. And all of a sudden you say, "Maybe I won't be ready. Maybe I won't be at my peak." (chuckles) Because I know my old man was definitely not in his peak, as an executive, until his mid-70s. Definitely not.
PH: So at this point you're treating it as a goal, and seeing how you feel at that point.
JH: Yeah. And you know, my brothers, who've basically bagged the business, except my younger brother Paul, but he's not competitive to me - so he works down in our art department? (Pauses) You get screwed up not working. Part of coming to work is, people challenge you. And challenge, I think, is a really good thing, because when people challenge you, it really forces you to do a check. And if you're at home, and it's just you and your wife kind of talking to each other all the time, you start to believe your own bullshit. I think that if I start working, I would still have to run something. If I didn't run something, I think I'd go bananas and six months later, people would look at you and say, "He looks like Saddam Hussein. What happened?" (Laughs) You know? When they dug him out of that hole, he looked a bit disheveled. I don't want to be Saddam Hussein, crawling out of some hole, where people say, "That's Jim Hagedorn? No way." (Chuckles)
PH: Somehow, I don't think that would be the problem. (Chuckles)
JH: Crawling out of a hole, I don't know. (Laughs)
PH: Interesting. Well, one thing I would say, having done a number of these interviews, is that you have a very strong personality.
JH: It's good and bad.
PH: It's interesting, just because it's very different. A lot of the CEOs I've talked to, for example, are - they echo somewhat similar themes, but they're a little bit more -
JH: (Chuckles) A little bit more PC?
PH: Exactly. Just a little less outspoken, a little more -
JH: I got no time for that. It's important to me that we have good values here. Okay? That is, that we don't cheat, we don't lie, we can look our customers, our consumers, our retailers in the eye - we can look each other in the eye. All that's important to me. But I tell you what we - We run hard here. If you won't able to be run hard, you shouldn't be working here.
That's the fun I get, because - put it this way: I have plenty of money. And I started this job with plenty of money. Why would I do this if it wasn't for, just kind of me? That's maybe a little bit different. I think other people kind of work for money. I'm not working for money. I've already got the money. I'm working for, because I like leading.
I used to ride this horse in high school - that was my sport. And we'd go out on the trail - I had this horse, who could not stand to have anyone in front of him. You know what I mean? He would just - you would just walk up alongside of him, and he'd take off running. I love that attitude. That's kind of the way I am. I don't like to be in the pack. I want to be out front. And I think I'm pretty good at that. I like leading.
But I like leading the way I like to lead, and you know what I find? If you want to make this an experience where people never want to leave, and they are really excited about coming to work every day, this is the energy, the same kind we had in the military. The attitude that you - what you hear from any fighter pilot, if you went to a fighter squadron, and they had a few beers in them, you'd hear this attitude out of a bunch of twenty-something-odd-year-old kids. They'd all sound the same. If you talked to my guys, who work here, my direct reports, pfft - they'd say, "I love -" I think this - I think they'd say, "I love energy here. I love the attitude here. I can't see taking a regular corporate job." I think you're probably hearing a little bit of that.
PH: Yeah, well, I really appreciate that. This has been very helpful. I'm looking forward to integrating some of these thoughts into the stuff I'm doing.
JH: Good luck...
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