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Carol Bellamy has been the Executive Director of the United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF) since 1995. Her last position prior to that was Director of the Peace Corps, where she became the first volunteer to return as the agency's head. In between her two stints with the Peace Corps, Bellamy enjoyed a varied career in government and the private sector. She began at a private law firm, then worked in various New York government agencies, followed by over a decade as a lawyer and banker at Wall Street firms like Morgan Stanley and Bear Stearns. She holds a BA from Gettysburg College, and a JD from New York University.
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(Exchange of pleasantries, and quick description of book project)
PH: I guess it would be great to start with a basic description of what your first full-time job was and how you approached it - what your thinking was going into that job.
CB: My first full-time job - Well, I went into the Peace Corps right after college. And, ah, what was my thinking? It was a mixture of wanting to save the world, and it also sounded pretty, kind of, you know, exciting. It was early Peace Corps. It turned out to be the most important thing I ever did in my life, because it changed my life entirely, because it just - just changed my life. Not every day, and not every thing I did, but it opened a totally different world out there, a world that said it was worth giving things a try, a world that said you could succeed in some things and you could fail in other things, but you shouldn't be stopped if you fail. So, for me, it was, as I said, probably the most important thing I ever did.
PH: When you took that Peace Corps job initially, were you thinking of it as something you would just do for 2 years, and then go back to a "normal" life, or did you -
CB: I had no idea at that point, frankly, it's so long ago. Probably - I don't know. It was so early in Peace Corps that one didn't even know what it was. I had thought coming out of college I was going to be a social worker, so again, my thinking changed entirely. Not entirely - more or less entirely. I don't think I had - I hadn't the slightest idea what I was getting myself into, frankly, but on the other hand, I wasn't particularly worried about it. And my parents, while they weren't jumping up and down for joy, actually unlike some other parents at that time, did not stop me.
PH: Did you strongly consider any alternatives to the Peace Corps, other things you might've done, at the time?
CB: Well, I was actually planning - I was virtually admitted to graduate school in social work, and I totally, totally changed direction and decided to go to the Peace Corps. So I didn't even think about anything else.
PH: Right. Did you remember that as a pretty dramatic decision to forego graduate school, or was it something you came to over time?
CB: No, I came to it when I thought I was locked in the library one night, and found some Peace Corps bulletins, and immediately decided that I wanted to do it. It was (laughs) - I can't say it was a long, considered decision.
PH: And, going from the Peace Corps back to the rest of your life, did you feel like you took away specific lessons? You said that it changed everything.
CB: It did. I mean, first of all, I'd never - I don't think I even knew a lawyer. I'd never thought of being a lawyer, but in Peace Corps, I decided I wanted to be able to get a government job. I had no idea how to do that, but it seemed to me that getting a law degree would help. Then it turned out by the time that I got my law degree, that what I really liked in law school were things like corporations and contracts, so I didn't go to work for the government - I went to work for Wall Street. But, I mean, law had been nowhere, ever, at all on any agenda until I was in the Peace Corps. Not that I had any - I wasn't doing anything that had to do with law, for godsakes - I was trying to keep kids alive and not die from diarrhea, dehydration, stuff like that.
PH: So it sounds as if you had some deeply committed goals in your mind, in terms of how you wanted to use your life, but the Peace Corps maybe gave you -
CB: I'm not sure how much I had in the early '60s, up to that point. The Peace Corps certainly helped. And then the '60s were a time of enormous - you young people don't recall, but the '60s were a time of enormous energy and activity in this country, a time when you really did believe every human being could make a little bit of a difference. I don't want it to sound too dramatic -
PH: Sure, sure.
CB: - There were days in the Peace Corps where I'd say, "Ooy, god, what am I doing?" (Chuckles) Anyway, it was a time of a lot of excitement and things happening.
PH: Did you feel like that spirit animated you in subsequent jobs, or -
CB: In subsequent jobs - Well, I feel that I have never - I've never thought I could do everything, but I've always thought that one should be prepared to take risks, and not be confined in some totally predictable way. There are extraordinary opportunities out there, and look for them, and try to take them! You're going to fail sometimes.
PH: Yeah, and that's a fascinating notion. The thing that's interesting to me is, how did you define and spot your opportunities? You mentioned, for example, being in grad school, and seeing the Peace Corps bulletin -
CB: No, I was in college, not in graduate school. I was planning to go to graduate school.
PH: Right, exactly.
CB: Then Peace Corp, then I went to law school, then I went to work for Wall Street, then there was a - a couple of my colleagues from this law firm went to work for the City of New York. John Lindsay, very exciting period in New York City, so I went off and became an Assistant Commissioner of Mental Health (chuckles). I didn't know anything about that - ran a prison health system.
PH: And how -
CB: Somehow, I think I was - I joined a political club. I'd never been political in my whole life - Nobody in my life had been political. Then I ran for political office because I think was the person least disliked in my club, so I kind of backed into that.
PH: In each of those times, in each of those junctures, were you aware of, it's a moment to seize the opportunity, or did it seem very natural to you?
CB: A little of both. I don't think I just ran around kind of like - I thought about it. I think most of life is quite considered, but then you have to have a little sprinkle of luck. If it's just running around chasing your tail, that won't work. So I thought about it, certainly.
PH: But I mean, for example, when you were taking the job in the mental health spot, there was a sort of discontinuity there between -
CB: Well, the discontinuity was - again, it was a time of a lot of, you know, pro bono political energy, and so on. I followed a couple of my colleagues from this law firm into this administration. It was very exciting. It was kind of the - what can I say? It was, John Linday was the Republican Jack Kennedy, or Jack Kennedy was the Democratic John Lindsay, or whatever, so it was kind of an exciting time. This was the opportunity, I felt - it wasn't so much that post. It was the opportunity to work in that administration, and the thing that was open that they were interested in me for was that post.
PH: Okay. Were there opportunities like that that you considered and didn't pursue, or maybe started pursuing and then stopped? So opportunities that you started, but then felt like they just didn't pan out?
CB: Well shortly after that, I ran for political office, so you think about what if anything would be your next race, and mostly, I just ran and got re-elected a couple of times. Well, yeah, I did run for mayor in 1985. That didn't pan out. But that turned out to be okay, because then I went to Wall Street to be a banker.
But I mean, no, I didn't just - I thought about this a lot. You don't just jump into something lightly.
PH: Absolutely. But what's interesting to me, or what I think is interesting to the readers, is among many people who make all kinds of choices, the choices you made turned out quite well for you, in terms of some of the interesting posts you've had and responsibilities -
CB: Absolutely. First of all, I mean, I think I've done a decent job, but I've also been quite lucky, but I've also had some setbacks. I mean, you know, I've lost two elections, and you lose an election - we always say, "Aw, it doesn't count, it's not the loss, it's blah blah blah blah blah." But it really is crappy to lose an election! You know? First of all, 8 million people don't want you, then 19 million people don't want you. It wasn't quite that bad. (laughs) The second election I lost much better than the first election. But I've lost a couple elections. But, actually, somebody once said to me, "Windows close, doors open", or doors close, windows open.
PH: Was that something you consciously thought about each time different setbacks or crossroads confronted me?
CB: Yeah! I've actually - I've done a bunch of different things, but I've never just done it for, you know, a year or a half a year. I've generally worked at something - the shortest time I've worked at something was four years, so I don't think I'm a flitter.
PH: Right. You stick with things once you commit.
CB: But yeah, I think one thinks about the future. I've always thought I was never quite as strategic or thoughtful as my friend Donna Shalala, but I've tried to be reasonably strategic.
PH: And switching gears a bit, what about mentors? Have you had any consistent individuals, or individuals who've played a consistent role in guiding you through the years, from the early part of your career?
CB: I've had peers. Not so much mentors - no, yeah, my first couple of bosses at the law firm were extraordinary. They were brief mentors, but I learned so much from them, and they were totally, totally, totally different people. Then I've kind of had peers, a colleague when I was state Senator, who's been really my closest friend, kind of in life, about closest friend.
You know, ah -
PH: And how did you learn from the law firm partners? Like, what was your method of picking up information?
CB: Oh, I don't know. My first boss kind of was so careful that he corrected the typos in the New York Times. My second boss was so wonderful. He let you be kind of on your own virtually all the time, and somehow had the sense just before you would screw it all up, he'd come in and bail you out. Two different approaches, but really, quite wonderful. Again, my friend Karen, we were state Senators, and really a very close friend, I've just learned a lot from her. We're very different - she's brilliant and brilliant speaker and a bit disorganized. I'm organized and not nearly as good a speaker as she is, but we complemented each other. My guess was neither. (laughs)
Ah, Donna's been someone who's clearly influenced me. No kind of big heros. You know, the only woman out there was Eleanor Roosevelt at one point. My mom played an important role, not so much in career choices - She just played an important role. My dad died when I was still pretty young. I was a lawyer by that time, but my late 20s, he died, and my mother was pretty independent, but also, just an important factor in my life. Not so much - Mostly, I had - Maybe I wanted to prove to her things. I don't know, she was pretty cool person.
PH: And looping back to Donna Shalala, how did you get to know her?
CB: Let's see. I met her in the kitchen of some people that I didn't even know, but I made friends with them to be my political supporters in 1972. She was doing, it was the Ragowskis, and she was the PhD overseer of Eddie Ragowski's PhD thesis. She was at teachers' college. So I've known her since '72.
PH: That's just remarkable that you both met so long ago and have gone onto take, independently, such posts of responsibility.
CB: She was a Peace Corps volunteer, too.
PH: Was that something that you immediately bonded over?
CB: Yeah, all Peace Corps volunteers do, kind of. That sounds a little weird, I don't want to - We're all weird. Yeah, she hasn't let me forget that she was in from '62-64, and I was '63-65, but no, no, no - We've both been involved in our own ways in New York politics. She was never an elected official, but she was part of the constitutional convention. She's - that kind of stuff. I was involved in electoral politics, she was part of the Municipal Assistance Corporation. We've just been friends, you know, forever.
PH: Last question is just around work-life balance. How have you found the ability to juggle professional concerns against outside-of-work concerns?
CB: This is probably where I'm - well, there may be many cases where I'm not good, but this is one where probably I'm not a very good example. I haven't been married. I'm not trying to send some kind of message - That's just my own personal choice, but I don't think that I have a particular model I'm following. So in terms of family, and raising children and stuff like that, I actually haven't done that. So some of the choices I've made have been easier for me to make than somebody else. I'm fully aware of that. And again, this is a personal choice, not because this is the model that I think everyone should follow.
Beyond that, well, I like to work. I generally - I have some good friends. The great thing about New York is that everyone thinks that what they're doing is the most important, but that means that nobody can get too big a head. So you know, when I go out to dinner - I'm going out to dinner with some friends tonight - I could've had this major, major thing happen today, but someone else had some other major thing, so they'll listen to me, but it won't be like, "Oh my god, look at what you did at the UN!" So, I have a group I go hiking with, though I've missed the last couple of years. I've gotten even worse in the work. Let me put it this way, I tell people here to do as I say, and not as I do. (chuckles) Not good on this balance thing.
PH: Very good. So I understand you've got some time pressure, so I'll let you go. Thanks very much...
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